国际媒体报道港人发现方舟科学家及考古学家提不同意见（4月30日消息）

国际媒体报道港人发现方舟
科学家及考古学家提不同意见
（4月30日消息）

时代论坛 / 2010年4月30日

影音使团于四月廿五日宣布发现方舟的新证据（www.noahsarksearch.net/big5）──在海拔四千米高的阿拉腊山上，发现经炭十四测试证实为四千八百年前的木造结构──接连几天全球各地媒体均有报道，不少科学家及考古学家亦有回应。

报道事件的媒体包括港人熟悉的《国家地理杂志》、《时代杂志》、美国广播公司、《纽约时报》、霍士新闻，英国的《独立报》、《镜报》及《卫报》，台湾的《中国时报》等等。（可参：http://news.google.com/news/story?cf=all&ned=us&hl=en&ncl=ds6IXt25a5eIvLMkDNmPio5vk5i-M）对于发布会上有探险队成员表示「百分之九十九点九确定」那是方舟，有科学家和考古学家对此表示保留。

是否接受碳十四测试？

无神论生物学者PZ Myers在《科学家网志》上发表文章，笑言这是首次有相信创造论的人接受碳十四测试的准确性（http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2010/04/if_fox_news_and_wing_nut_daily.php）。支持创造论的生物学者Todd Wood在接受《国家地理杂志》访问时解释，创造论认为地球只存在了约六千年，但碳十四测试却能验出六千年以上的物品，因此创造论支持者对碳十四测试应有另外的计算方法，否则便等如承认地球存在了过万年。他个人认为方舟早已不存在：因洪水过后地上应无树木，挪亚一家回到陆地后需建屋居住，方舟的木材正是「现成」材料。另一考古学者Paul Zimansky亦对《国家地理杂志》表示，这个研究团队的研究方式跟他们很不同──没有考虑过过往的考古、历史和地质研究（http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2010/04/100428-noahs-ark-found-in-turkey-science-religion-culture/）。

是否学术研究？

美国的圣经考古学者Eric Cline接受《时代杂志》访问时直言，这个以业馀人士为主的研究团队以「记者会」形式公布自己的发现，与学者们将发现写成论文刊登于学术期刊的做法有所不同。他亦质疑方舟为何会差不多「原只」地出现，因为公元一世纪的犹太历史学家约瑟夫已提及人们早已把方舟瓦解，将木块作为「护身符」配戴。而就算是次真的发现「方舟」，他亦认为不能证明这就是挪亚的方舟，因为Gilgamesh的传说中，亦有一位名叫Utnapishtim的人被神拣选造了一只方舟：「如果我要找方舟，那不一定是挪亚的，或许那是Utnapishtim的。」（http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1985830,00.html）

《中时》电子报亦引述英国考古学者皮特（Mike Pitt）及上古历史学者波谢尔（Nicholas Purcell）的意见，指全球若曾发生大洪水，且达四千公尺之高，那么便应留有大量地质证据，而埃及和美索不达米亚等古文明亦不可能无事（http://news.chinatimes.com/tech/0,5249,171705x112010042900157,00.html）。

曾参与者的质疑

曾于2008年随影音使团探险队到阿拉腊山西南部山洞进行一个月研究的美国「圣经世界事工」创办人Dr. Randall Price，亦在一封私人电邮中讲述他随队研究的一些观察，并质疑有关发现。但因该封私人电邮被广泛流传，他随即在其事工的网页发表声明（www.worldofthebible.com/news.htm），表示自己也在跟进研究，现阶段唯一的公开声明是「愈大的宣称便需要愈大的证据去支持」，他对是次探险的性质及程序表示保留，促请影音使团与土耳其合作的研究队尽快将采集得来的样本送予科学家及学者作比对分析，并在独立人士实地考证后才发布探索结果。

Ｏ四年的发现是否有误？

而本地亦有网友将影音使团数年前发现方舟洞穴的公布与今次发现方舟遗骸的公布比对，发觉两次的发现地点似有不同：上次的洞穴是于Ｏ四年发现（www.media.org.hk/noahsark/asp/gathering_04_newspaper_001.asp），但今次遗骸所在的山洞却是土耳其领队在Ｏ八年六月才得知的秘密地点。网友认为影音使团有责任交代今次的发现是否证明之前的发现有误。

争议：五千年木材为何在高山？

对于有学者指阿拉腊山是火山喷发形成的，因此洪水发生时，该山并不存在，方舟不可能停在该处；即使停在该处，也应因火山喷发而被摧毁。在外国一些有评论是次发现的网站，便有支持发现的网友反问学者，若那处是火山，学者如何解释有五千年历史的木材出现其上：「难道火山喷出木材？」亦有网友直言，学者们发现不到真相，是因为他们的眼睛早被理论和假设所蒙敝。（http://scienceblogs.com/tfk/2010/04/fake_noahs_ark_found_on_mt_ara.php，见底部回应栏）

（www.christiantimes.org.hk，时代论坛每日快拍，2010.4.30）

舊回應35則

Hin / 2010-05-01 16:50:43

MEDIA is defending and not repenting

As I read the links provided in the previous postings, I can clearly see that MEDIA still believe what they found is Noah's Ark but they didn't answer some of the major questions that the public raised, such as:

1. Did they make the false claim in 2004-5 when they proclaimed that they have found the Ark?

2. Why is the wood shown in the cave that the Hong Kong team entered so different from the sample that they shown?

I am also interested to know the followings:

1. How much money they have spend in this project so far?

2. How much money they have given to Parasut and the Turkish officials?

Let me quote a famous saying at this time:
"What is real can't be false, what is false can't be true".

According to what I know about MEDIA, what they will do is to treat this matter "politically", using skillful words and seems-to-be-true explanations try to create room and buy time for themselves just like what they did in 2004-5.

They will keep asking for money so that they can find the ARK and then they hope that the public will forgive them and forget what happened in the past years.

After all, on one hand, it is very doubtful that the ARK can be found, on the other hand, even something is found, it is very difficult to prove it is the ARK. Looking at the development around the world today, I am afraid Jesus might have return even before MEDIA can find the ARK. What does that mean is that the innocent public will continue to pump money into MEDIA until the end of this world!

Also, MEDIA will use their usual tactic claiming that their intention is good even though the result is not what they want and people should appreciate their effort of trying to "prove" God to the public.

The question is if they have been warned, reminded, suggested by so many others about the problems with the way they do this, they should listen and change but they just keep going and going and going with no ear to listen and no eyes to discern. A good intention can't justify everything. We need to be responsible to the public when you get support and money from the public. Don't just make up things, jump to conclusion and then tell the public that you have a good heart and a good intention and everything should be OK. What kind of rationale is that?

Give the public the answer they need, give the public the reports (about the money) they should have (not in bulk figures but detail breakdowns, especially the money to Parasut and the local officials, may be ICAC should involve in this and get the truth out sooner, after all, they are collecting donation from the public). The truth will come out and I hope it will come out really soon.

虞瑋倩 / 2010-05-01 16:32:09

影音使團麻煩了

方舟若果屬實﹐ 影音使團已經犯法。根據報導﹐ 土耳其文化旅遊部長表示會調查為何該國有官員未經批准便到香港召開「方舟」記者會﹐ 並且要調查為何那些木材會運到中國。
(這是偷盜人家國家古物)
Liberty University Dr. Randall Price，那些所謂方舟結構的相片可見到蜘蛛網，但在亞拉臘山4000米以上環境不可能存在。電郵透露，他的庫爾德拍檔手上有證據，包括黑海附近木材地點、搬運木材的人及運送的車輛。他透露，自己曾於08年給予探索隊10萬美元。，其後要求他們退回，但對方沒答應。

虞瑋倩 / 2010-05-01 16:05:48

今日多份報章報導方舟發現被質疑造假

太陽
http://the-sun.on.cc/cnt/news/20100501/00407_041.html?pubdate=20100501
明報
http://hk.news.yahoo.com/article/100430/4/hrty.html
東方
http://orientaldaily.on.cc/cnt/news/20100501/00176_037.html?pubdate=20100501
SCMP
http://www.scmp.com/portal/site/SCMP/menuitem.2af62ecb329d3d7733492d9253a0a0a0/?vgnextoid=895e6f025af48210VgnVCM100000360a0a0aRCRD&ss=Hong+Kong&s=News (需要訂戶才可以閱讀內容)

Christian Science Monitor
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Global-Issues/2010/0428/Doubt-cast-on-Noah-s-ark-found-in-Turkey

虞瑋倩 / 2010-05-01 02:21:37

影音使團發表的照片有致命破綻

美國「聖經世界事工」創辦人Dr. Randall Price 指出﹐ 木頭有蜘蛛網﹐ 但海拔4千米﹑寒冷的高山那裡可能有蜘蛛網﹖
大家看清楚照片﹕
http://www.noahsarksearch.net/images/20100424/pr_even_20100424_13.jpg

Randall Price說他自己有那些木頭的照片，是在黑海拍的。

為防止影音使團刪除照片﹐我已經把照片下載了

虞瑋倩 / 2010-05-01 02:18:31

影音使團照片露出破綻

Liberty University 考古學家﹐ 美國「聖經世界事工」創辦人Dr. Randall Price指出﹐ 方舟的照片露出許多破綻，如為何冰凍的山上會有蜘蛛網﹐ 大家看看這張影音使團發表的照片﹐ 清楚看到蜘蛛網﹗﹗﹗﹗﹗

http://www.noahsarksearch.net/images/20100424/pr_even_20100424_13.jpg

(為了防止影音使團刪除照片﹐ 我已經把照片下載了)

Hin / 2010-05-01 00:03:02

To 張國棟: sorry, I am a bit too fast and assume...

Sorry, I am a bit too fast posting this e-mail that I got and assume people know Dr. David Liang.

I found a book that he wrote and here is his background:

梁斐生博士畢業於加拿大Alberta大學電機工程博士, 多年來曾任職於加拿大國防部,主持國防太空,通訊衛星, 反飛彈防禦及核子幅射研究與發展工作.1991年榮獲加拿大國防部特殊貢獻獎. 1996年榮獲北大西洋公約組織 (NATO)航太咨詢委員會貢獻獎.曾以國家首席代表身份參予國防太空科技發展委員會,西方國家高科技產品管理 (COCOM)委員會,反飛彈防禦發展,以及北大西洋公約組織四個科技發展委員會的工作. 於2003提早退休.

I am just posting the e-mail that I received about his comment on this and that is basically the doubt that I have too.

快必 / 2010-04-30 23:48:54

也回應

如果「非學術」、「只將對自己有利的相片/資料公佈、而沒全面披露各項研究資料」有利傳福音，叫人入教，影陰是會繼續的，死未？

張國棟 / 2010-04-30 23:15:24

回應

Hin朋友，您這樣轉述一個聲稱是很有學問和敬虔的David Liang 的意見，既沒有出處，又沒有其他 creditation ，連David Liang 在甚麼大學做甚麼研究也不提及，手法跟影音找幾個人出來說我們有重大發現，卻聲稱他們是學者研究員，又有甚麼分別呢？

－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－－

我很認同小信徒的回應，並且我會看得 generalized 一點。

其實影音事件和很多教內的荒謬並不出奇，把謬論當是大道理地到處傳講（包括近日那些說批評吳宗文等同為嚇親各各教牧、令他們以後不敢回應社會的謬論）並且，非但謬論不需要被輿論界或學術界審議，就連人們提出了批評，提倡者也可以當是耳邊風的。再不成，就反過來指摘您不懂同情當事人對上帝的赤子之心。除了騙自己人（那些無知小信徒），這些話根本沒有價值。

福音派的DNA就是如此無能力面對現實和學術界，我會說，這已到了無藥可救的地步，他們關起門說自己天下無敵，但一出到世界就毫無地位（但他們會自我欺騙說，這世界充滿自由主義者，咱們的大道理不得昭彰，只是因為人們敵擋上帝）。早前有 UnChristian 一書說，Barna Group 做了一個調查，很多美國人皆認為福音派信徒是 out of touch with reality （此書中譯快將出版，我有份寫推介的）。我十分明白為何人們會有這樣一個印像，我在美國和香港教會的見聞都印證著這些。

最抵死的是，十分努力地 construct 謬論出來，製造虛假幻想給香港信眾，令大家感覺良好一番的，很多都不是無名的牧者或小信徒，而是那些有很大影響力的牧者、團體、教報編輯。即或有時他們中間某甲會批評某乙，但他們還是一丘之貉，只是找些小分歧來消磨一下而已。

用嚴謹和抽象一點的寫法來表達的話，那就是，香港福音派教會裡很多具影響力的牧者、團體、教報編輯等，發表言論後皆不會因為遇到有力的批評而修訂或收回言論的，連表現得願意跟批評者理論的態度也沒有。他們倒會反批評對方沒有愛心，破壞教會（即他們）云云。判斷無法因應新證據而更改，是活脫脫的非理性表現。

某些言論根本一開始就不應該說出來，因為其錯誤顯而易見，但說了也罷，好歹應該顯出尊重理性的風度，但正正在這裡，他們全都不合格。

Hin / 2010-04-30 20:31:34

A comment from Dr. David Liang

Someone send me this comment from Dr. David Liang who is a top and respected scientist.

Dear All,
I was excited when they showed me a huge chunk of light and dried out wood about a year ago. It is clearly a petrified wood that I expect to see from
Noah’s time. In my visit to MEDIA HQ, I was told that the entire wall were made from wooden panels, and this piece of petrified wood was cut down from the wall. By looking at the latest pictures that have been released more carefully, I now start to have very serious doubt on what they have found & CLAIMED.
Please see the attached.
Tks, DL
These beams are way too young in age. Absolutely no sign of petrifications:

As I know, Dr. Liang is a Godly person and has a heart for reaching the lost.

Hin / 2010-04-30 20:24:03

To be fair to MEDIA

I am sure there are people out there who believe in MEDIA and support MEDIA.

Can these people please quote us one or two authorities who accept the discovery of MEDIA?

In this article presented by Christian Times including statements made by both Christians and non-Christian sources.

Try to read the article a few more times and you will realize what are the key issues.

Please, supporters of MEDIA, besides blaming our comments as attacks from Satan (bear in mind I am also an evangelical fundamentalist), try to be a little bit more objective and try to answer our questions and show us some supports besides the group from MEDIA. It will definitely help us a lot. Please do so if you could.

Hin / 2010-04-30 20:00:50

I don't think so...

I don't think that we should let go and let them do and say whatever they want.

As I said in my previous postings in the past years, we should spread the word and let more people to be aware of the problems related to their "discovery" so that people will be more careful and alert when MEDIA approach them for money.

In the book of Ezekiel, God reminded us that when we saw people going in the wrong way, we must warn them. I am sure by our posting, our e-mails, our questions, we are warning them and if MEDIA refuse to listen, that is their responsibility but if we know and keep silent, then, it is our responsibility.

As you said, pastors and churches also bear the responsibility of educating their members. Even my little daughter heard about this and asked me whether it is true or not. Pastors, be prepare to answer questions from your members and be aware that you are responsible for your answers.

Keep talking, don't stop. I am doing that and will continue to do so....

小信徒 / 2010-04-30 18:36:34

算吧!

我好明白影音使團現在怎樣想:

1/ 我們在為主做事! 又有撒旦來搞擾了!

2/ 我們也有我們的專家和學者, 坊間專家有自己的看法, 我們也有自己的看法, 你們禁止我研究和發佈, 才違反科學和民主精神!

3/ 那些批評者, 不是有自己的私心(妒忌我們找到方舟), 就是無神論者, 又或那些自由派信徒. 他們根本不信聖經, 對這些人沒甚麼好講.

4/ 就算有小問題, 我們也要堅持. 這事工是神建立的, 眾多同工和馬灣公園也賴以生存! 我們怎樣辛苦, 遭遇多少嘲笑和批評也要堅持下去, 這是為主背十架.

因此, 要他們回轉認錯, 我覺得是異想天開.

真正重要的是: 教會中人, 特別係各位教牧傳道, 大家想怎樣教導會眾呢? 是繼續教導會友吹噓方舟的發現? 還是教導會友分清真相, 別一聽「方舟」便盲目支持?

我深信只要廣大教會保持理性客觀, 影音無路可進自然要認錯. 最敝係廣大教會都陪佢癲的話, 咁影音還是很有市場, 他們也必定不會回轉.

因此, 我們的留言對象不是影音, 而是教會/教眾, 希望教會/教眾一起拒絕非學術、只將對自己有利的相片/資料公佈、而沒全面披露各項研究資料、找獨立專家核證的「廣告宣傳」。

Hin / 2010-04-30 17:27:22

I don't think so..

I don't think that Christian Times is trying to reduce the impact but rather Christian Time is helping to bring out the facts.

The links that they provided and the information they stated are very helpful to further cast doubt upon the case.

I appreciate their effort.

I think the public, both Christian and non-Christian should pressure MEDIA to present the truth as it is.

For almost 6 years, MEDIA has been using the "ARK" to run their ministry, to raise money, they even establish a ministry being named after the ARK. It will be a serious blow to their ministry and financial situation if they admit that they are wrong but no matter what, they should. As I said in many of my posting in the past, they are blowing a balloon and sooner or later, it is going to break and I think now is the time.

They have made so many mistakes before but I never saw them once, not even once, admitting their mistakes in public or to the public. They are getting money from the public, they are a public organization, when they need money, they ask the public for it, when they are wrong, they should admit it to the public. I didn't see that at all in the past years.

Admitting one's mistake is not a sign of weakness but strength; on the other hand, covering one's mistake is definitely the sign of weakness.

The thing that hurt me the most is that there are Christians who simply want to support the work of God and then donate to MEDIA's ministry not knowing all the facts and MEDIA continue to create misleading information to these people and make them think that they are supporting the right thing. This is what I called "spiritual abuse". This is not right at all, we can deceive many but at the same time, we can't deceive many.

MEDIA, let's see who you are and how you are...

Also, for those who want to defend MEDIA, let's hear your side of the story besides criticizing us being too critical toward MEDIA.

虞瑋倩 / 2010-04-30 12:06:15

時代論壇想淡化衝擊 -- 因為「聖經世界事工」創辦人Dr. Randall Price明說這是騙局 (To make a long story short: this is all reported to be a fake)

曾於2008年隨影音使團探險隊到阿拉臘山西南部山洞進行一個月研究的美國「聖經世界事工」創辦人Dr. Randall Price
Randall Price 發出聲明﹐ 指出這次發現是一個騙局。
http://www.examiner.com/x-44168-Philadelphia-Freethought-Examiner~y2010m4d28-Oops-Nevermind-RandallPriceNotedArkHunter-says-latest-find-is-fake

原電郵﹕
I was the archaeologist with the Chinese expedition in the summer of 2008 and was given photos of what they now are reporting to be the inside of the Ark. I and my partners invested $100,000 in this expedition (described below) which they have retained, despite their promise and our requests to return it, since it was not used for the expedition. The information given below is my opinion based on what I have seen and heard (from others who claim to have been eyewitnesses or know the exact details).

To make a long story short: this is all reported to be a fake.

The photos were reputed to have been taken off site near the Black Sea, but the film footage the Chinese now have was shot on location on Mt. Ararat. In the late summer of 2008 ten Kurdish workers hired by Parasut, the guide used by the Chinese, are said to have planted large wood beams taken from an old structure in the Black Sea area (where the photos were originally taken) at the Mt. Ararat site. In the winter of 2008 a Chinese climber taken by Parasut's men to the site saw the wood, but couldn't get inside because of the severe weather conditions. During the summer of 2009 more wood was planted inside a cave at the site. The Chinese team went in the late summer of 2009 (I was there at the time and knew about the hoax) and was shown the cave with the wood and made their film. As I said, I have the photos of the inside of the so-called Ark (that show cobwebs in the corners of rafters - something just not possible in these conditions) and our Kurdish partner in Dogubabyazit (the village at the foot of Mt. Ararat) has all of the facts about the location, the men who planted the wood, and even the truck that transported it.

Hin / 2010-04-30 10:13:24

I began to worry..

How much I wish the discovery is true so that we can put an end to this but now, how much I worry that the discovery is not true and the damage that it will cause as a result.

From 2004 till now, it has been 6 long years, imagine how much money have been spend for this venture. If it is a sincere and serious research, every penny that was spend will worth the effort but if it is not, I felt sorry for those who supported this in the past years. I felt really bad as well as really sad.

It is also interesting to know how they selected their members for the team. Why are Mr. Yuen, Mr. Lee, Mr. Yeung, Ms Leung and two others qualified to be in the team at all in the first place? For such a project, the selection of team members should be a lot more careful and appropriate. The team members themselves didn't help people to believe but rather to doubt the results.

MEDIA, get smart and stop doing foolish things like that. You are not damaging yourself only but also many other Christians. Please be responsible.

By now, I think we all know that the claim that they made in 2005 is not true. They should admit that and apologize for that. Will they? I doubted, I doubted very much that they will....

I began to worry and I am worrying......not for MEDIA but for those who trust them and those who donate money to support them in the past years.

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