基督日報事件獨立調查團加入新成員並作最新匯報（6月23日消息）

基督日報事件獨立調查團
加入新成員並作最新匯報
（6月23日消息）

時代論壇 / 2008年6月23日

基督日報事件獨立調查團於六月二十日公佈，加入海外基督使團（OMF）全職同工麥裕沛博士為新成員，並將繼續跟進《基督日報》、耶穌青年會及張在亨牧師之間的關係，以及協助前耶青成員開展正常信仰生活。調查團亦以簡表方式，歸納內地不同地區證人有關耶青的口供，供各界參考。

公佈全文及簡表如下：

基督日報事件獨立調查團（下稱調查團）已於2008年3月底完成整份調查報告，該報告已於《時代論壇》發佈。除了現任成員余達心牧師、楊慶球牧師、陸輝牧師、郭文池牧師、張慕皚牧師、陳如炳牧師、梁廷益牧師、林以諾牧師、陳恩明牧師、司徒永富博士、范建強博士及召集人柯廣輝律師外，海外基督使團（OMF International）的全職同工、曾任職工程師多年的麥裕沛博士已經正式成為調查團的新成員，為調查團提供各方面的協助。

調查團謹此對前裁判官曾繁凱先生一直付出的幫助，表示衷心的謝意，並感謝曾繁凱先生答應作調查團的程序顧問，在有需要時，在程序上給予意見。除了在程序上給予意見外，曾繁凱先生將不會參與其他跟進及調查事項的實質工作。

調查團未來的主要工作是跟進及調查與《基督日報》、耶穌青年會、張大衛（或張在亨）牧師有關組織的關係、教義及發展，所有發現均會基於可核實的證據。此外，調查團亦會積極探討如何幫助前耶青成員重新建立正統及正確的信仰，開展正常的信仰生活。調查團將把所得結果於網站www.enquirycommittee-ghi.org公佈，並繼續通過《時代論壇》向公眾報導。

調查團曾與超過20名內地不同地區的前耶穌青年會成員及知情者接觸，這些證人的身份都已獲證實。證人們提供了大量關於耶穌青年會的教義、組織及活動的證據。證人雖然是獨立及來自不同地區的，但他們的證供都是一致和互相吻合的。由於所涉及的問題敏感，調查團有責任按證人的要求把證人的身份保密。有鑒於此，調查團現謹以匿名方式，透過「內地各地區證人提供的證據一覽表」，總括調查所得，供公眾參考。

內地各地區證人提供的證據一覽表

地區

華南

華東

華中

華北

教義

耶穌第一次來臨是失敗的

沒提及

確認

確認

確認

“MSN” （牧師）是再來的基督

確認

確認

沒提及

確認

“公義的謊言”是“智慧”，並且是聖經的教導

確認

確認

確認

確認

耶青所提倡的福音高於其他的福音

確認

沒提及

確認——部分耶青成員說過傳統教會是魔鬼

確認

離開耶青的人會受威嚇，自身和家庭都會受巨大的損害

確認

沒提及

確認

確認

操控性——必須完全投入耶青

確認

沒提及

確認

確認

對關鍵人物的認識

張大衛牧師

沒提及

張大衛是再來主

沒提及

張大衛是再來主，每有支部成立，他都會親自出席開幕典禮

貞美幹事

擔當重要的角色，當時（2002年），她也在香港耶青擔當重要角色

沒提及

沒提及

認識

其他領袖

認識深圳一位領袖，香港耶青負責人及耶青的國際事工主管均認識該領袖

沒提及

認識華中地區的一名領袖，耶青的國際事工領袖確認耶青中有相同名字的人物

沒提及

耶青的組織

講道筆記不容許帶走

確認

確認

確認

確認

騙取家人的錢作奉獻

沒有提及

確認

確認

確認

在承認“再來主”已經降世後，會獲提升到更高的等級，並或教授更核心的教義

確認

確認

沒有提及

確認

嚴密的內部管理組織：碗筷按等級劃分、必須完全順服領導人等

確認

確認

確認

確認

相關資訊：【《基督日報》事件專輯】

（www.christiantimes.org.hk，時代論壇每日快拍，2008.6.23）

舊回應16則

Hin / 2008-07-03 01:54:52

One interesting but helpful piece of information

From D Law's letter to YD, GH and Jang, one point is interesting that is the conversion experience and church background of the YD and GH members.

I think it helps if we can get these information about the GH key members (I think there are about 8 of them). It is helpful to know where and how did they accept Christ, since then, what churches they have attended and what are their church membership at this time.

I think their past experience and church reference are very very important. But, up to now, I don't have and I don't know who has this piece of information.

We do have bits and pieces but it is importan to have the whole picture of the key persons of GH.

佚名Anonymous / 2008-07-02 20:16:06

Re-posted here: An Open Letter to Rev. Jang and his followers

An Open Letter to Rev. Jang and his followers

First to YD and GH, and their staff and associates

I am greatly impressed by the dedication, commitment and loyalty you have shown to your ministries, each other and to Rev. Jang. I sincerely wish I can support what you are doing. Now, as you are fully aware, you are under attacks from HK, USA, China and a number of other people from various parts of the world. A cloud of suspicion is being cast over you and all you claim to do.

You must realize that these people who harbor doubts on you and what you do ARE NOT all out to bring you down. They do have serious concerns about:

a) Your true identity

b) Your relationship with Rev. Jang, a professed former Unification Church member who claimed he had reformed and is now a minister of the Gospel, and

c) Whether you - GH and YD - and Rev. Jang are truly disciples of our Lord Jesus Christ.

True, I have read through the doctrinal statements of GH, YD, and even that of Olivet University, but you need to go BEYONG that. Why? Because recent investigations and past personal contacts, as well as testimonials from former members of YD have revealed a picture rather different from what you have thus far portrayed for us publicly.

You owe it to all those whom you minister to to come out clearly to explain your belief to the churches. If you are true to the apostolic faith, but (unfortunately) are under attacked for the wrong reasons, you should all the more try to clarify the situation for the churches. Enlighten us. Share your personal salvation experience with us. Allow us to enter into an open and friendly fellowship with you all.

My prayer is that you are truly disciples of Jesus Christ. Only Jesus can mediate between God and us. Only He can give us salvation. He is Lord, the second Person of the Holy Trinity, and our returning Judge. He alone is worthy of our worship and praises.

To Rev. Jang

Your un-limited energy, total dedication to your causes, and super-human planning and management ability has earned my admiration. I truly wish you are, as you claim to be, a minister of the Gospel, and a servant of our Savior God Jesus Christ.

You and your ministries are now the subjects of investigations and suspicions. No doubt you should be extremely concerned. If you are truly a minister of Jesus Christ, and, as a member of WEA, you surely should defend for yourself. As Paul did to the Christians at Corinth and elsewhere, you should deem it an honor to show yourself and to share your spiritual experience with those who doubt you. You owe it to the churches to explain your spiritual journey. Consider the probable benefits of this act to your ministries. If you are a believer of Jesus Christ and His servant, and you have been unfairly misunderstood, it should be your honor to bear witness for His saving grace. Speak openly to the churches. Bring with you your colleagues from Olivet, WEA, GH and YD, and share your collective experience with the church proper!!!! Let us hear from you and get to truly know you!! That can turn out to be a glorious and humbling experience for the church!!!

On the contrary, for you to insist on remaining silent makes little sense. It is unimaginable that you should allow yourself and your ministries to remain under a cloud of suspicion! Furthermore, the fact that you are now being cast as cult will ruin your ministries and all you have hoped and wished to accomplish for your Lord.

Rev. Jang, if you are reading this letter (and I hope you are), I want you to know that I am praying for you and all your associates. I pray that God will give you the wisdom to know what to do next.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

D Law

A Doctor / 2008-07-02 08:53:36

To Timmy...

I am getting tired of all these back and forth word games...your lengthy post is senseless.

I assure you that this is not a 鬧劇, and it can not simply 快點收場. Look at who are among the members of the Investigation Team! Do you think they have nothing better to do but wish to play game with YD just to knock down "a youthful competitor"????

"公義的謊言”是“智慧"，並且是聖經的教導" What a rediculous position!! If a sizable number of witnesses was attesting to the above teaching in YD, how can we trust YD?“

"公義的謊言”???!!! Rediculous!!!

A Doctor / 2008-07-01 10:49:44

Ignore Timmy and Cham...

... it's a waste of time. I concur with Eric.

eric / 2008-06-30 11:44:52

IEC is conducting in a proper manner. Thank you.

It is a direct and first hand contact; by a team of people. The numner of people from different places are both varied and extensive.

調查團曾與超過20名內地不同地區的前耶穌青年會成員及知情者接觸，這些證人的身份都已獲證實。

The evidence is of depth, from substance to operation.

證人們提供了大量關於耶穌青年會的教義、組織及活動的證據。證人雖然是獨立及來自不同地區的，

And corrobarative.

但他們的證供都是一致和互相吻合的。

With sensitivity

由於所涉及的問題敏感，調查團有責任按證人的要求把證人的身份保密。

And clear and easy to be understood.

有鑒於此，調查團現謹以匿名方式，透過「內地各地區證人提供的證據一覽表」，總括調查所得，供公眾參考。

Although the name remains anonymous, you have my vote.

耶青打手發噏風 / 2008-06-29 12:33:23

路邊雞

timmy,cham,...等的言論有明顯的既定立場, 有關貼文除了扣帽子外, 別無論據.調查團的報告內容, 無論是否有根有據, 只要是不利耶青的, 他們都以類似"別有用心","不可信"...來抨擊;但又看不到他們合情合理的論証.
眾看官對此等非理性辯解, 大可不理!

lee / 2008-06-28 22:43:21

証据如山

多謝新的差傳機構提供新的証据，由顧問团到詢查团到發佈會到如今差傳机構，都是正派有名望、有誠信的資料提供者，所提供的都指証GH及YDJ是疑似異端行徑、教義、組織。

如今鐵証如山，再狡辯都無用了；再撒謊也不成功了！msn的陰謀失敗了！他的走狗敗家了！msn的本相暴露了：他是失敗者、敵基督、大騙子！他的跟隨者是大傻子！阿門！

Hin / 2008-06-28 03:10:16

To Timmy: It is not as simple

I wish it is as simple as you said. But it is not.

You made the conclusion that 個別人士利用香港教會界領袖的名義與身份，對內地自生青年傳教團體進行非難迫害，給他們套上異端身份。I think you have really underestimate these pastors and leaders especially when this become a public matter, if I am one of them, I will not let them use my name in anyway if I don't know what they are doing and for what reasons.

This issue is not just between a few people in Hong Kong and a group of young people in China, again, you have underestimated the YD and GH. You should go to Korea, Japan and USA and search about this issue, then you will know that it is not just the Hong Kong churches and leaders are being alerted about GH and YD but also in other countries (you don't have to go there physically but just get on the website and do some search). More information will be released later to show how big the scope is.

If this is just some personal arguments, it just didn't make any sense at all and it is really out of proportion. I won't even spend anytime reading it nor responding to it but it is not.

timmy / 2008-06-28 01:53:04

鬧劇需要快點收場

雖然說得直白會令得眾人尷尬，但是這場紛爭事實上就是一場鬧劇。這場鬧劇從外部上看來，就是香港教會界領袖與內地自生青年傳教團體之間的爭論。事實上是否如此，仍然存在其他說法，就是某些個別人士利用香港教會界領袖的名義與身份，對內地自生青年傳教團體進行非難迫害，給他們套上異端身份。

在這個期間，有些人花了很長的篇幅，盡可能地試圖破壞耶穌青年會的信用度。可是無謂的口水戰只是讓大家越來越失去掉對事實真相的把握。製造出重重疑雲，只是讓我們一次又一次地錯過核心的爭論。

所以回過來再看看這個有關核心信仰的爭論。調查團等人士指說內地耶穌青年會教導十字架是失敗的；甚至說他們將某個人作為再來主。但是很明顯的看到耶穌青年會多次公開宣言了對於耶穌基督和他的十字架的拯救的確信。他們的宣言是“我們從來沒有宣稱也不相信主第一次來是失敗的，他是為了擔當我們的罪而甘心走上十字架的。十字架不是失敗，乃是主耶穌基督在這個世界完全的得勝，通過主耶穌基督在十字架上流出寶血，向我們整個人類彰顯出父神很大饒恕的愛，我們通過祂十字架代贖，蒙　神的恩典，憑著信心接受這愛就白白的稱義”。同時，也很明確地澄清了對於再來問題的理解“我們不相信「某人就是再來的基督」的論調。對於主的再來，我們堅信的是將來必親自有權柄有榮耀再臨世上，並且我們相信耶穌基督必快再來”。這些內容前前後後發表多次，最終於5月30日耶穌青年會公開記者會上再次公開聲明。（http://www.ydjesus.org.hk/feature/article11.htm）。

無視於這些信心的告白，卻於網絡上又散布出來了所謂20名有關證人的話題。其實在背後詆毀的人何止這些呢。就連在這裡的某些人士不是也在做類似的工作嗎？單憑20個人的閒言碎語就要論斷一個團體，這樣的作法甚為不妥。已經可以證實，這20個人背後有著隱藏的網絡和操控的勢力。那么又怎么來列出一個表格說有來此不同地區的獨立證詞呢？然後試圖要說明這些證詞是統一的。這是在邏輯上嚴重地誤導了大眾的認知。更何況直到現在這些人的身份，與耶穌青年會的關係仍然未得到證實。他們自稱是耶穌青年會的成員，就可以被認同嗎？單單想要用調查團領袖們的名義與身份來擔保內地這些人員的身份與關係，這似乎是相當大的一個冒險。在我就不愿意讓這些領袖們的名義與身份在這點上有閃失。否則不就是香港教會界的羞恥嗎？那些盜用他們的名義和身份的人的作法是極其惡劣的。

希望這場鬧劇快點收場，以免更多的危及香港教會與內地青年傳教團體，破壞福音的工作。

Hin / 2008-06-25 19:02:19

Response to the response of YD

The response from YD is as prompt as before, it helps all the readers to know more not only the argument but also the group. This is very helpful.

I will avoid putting the whole response on here but will quote important sentences with no intention of quoting them out of the context. Readers can always go back to the posting before this one to read the whole content of the YD response.

調查團查實從未親自接觸本會在中國的在任負責人，核實這些「證人」是否曾為耶青成員。即使這些「證人」確為耶青前成員，「證人」在耶青期間的信仰狀況、帶領「證人」的牧者是誰、在耶青曾經學習的內容、參與年資、離開耶青日期等詳細背景資料也未曾經中國的負責人核實。本會認為這是調查過程中一個根本性的錯誤和漏洞。

To verify the identity of former YD members by the present YD leaders will cause great difficulty for the former YD members. As we can see in the past two similar cases, Haiden church made the notice and here is what they said about the reaction from the YD:

海淀堂聲明5月27日發佈後，海淀堂相關同工分別接到「耶青」成員的電話，電話中帶有脅迫性語言，而辯解邏輯令人困惑，這使我們又進一步確定了發表聲明的必要性。

When Mali is bold enough to come to Hong Kong and testify, YD denied her identity and YD tried to persuade her to change her mind, here is the link that you can see Mali's (she used the name Esther) own statement:

http://christiantimes.org.hk/News/47552/Announcement_1.pdf

Based on the above, how could we believe that the verification from the present YD leaders is possible at all.

調查團以尊重證人意願為由將20位「證人」的身份保密，然而本會呼籲調查團更應尊重現有的1,000多位來自中國、香港和海外耶青成員的信仰立場。

Based on the YD web page, they stated:

Now, YD ministers are serving in mission fields in over 20 countries, testifying the grace of Jesus Christ in more than 200 campuses. They will continue to run for Christ with passion!

They are claiming that they are serving in 20 countries and over 200 campuses but in their web page they only have links to 13 countries and in the above paragraph they claimed that they have over 1000 members only.

If we can do some simple math, their mission is quite weak and unsuccessful. Besides this, their argument is that over 1000 members testimony is stronger than the 20 witnesses.

The statement of faith is stated in the web page only, it doesn't mean it can represent the 1000 members. My question is how do they define membership? If I have 1000 members in my church, does that mean all 1000 members will testify to the statement of faith of the church? I believe that as members of a church, he or she must accept the statement of faith but how can someone be a member, they must apply and they must have some official record. Do they have that for YD? Is member just someone who attends their meetings? If there is no official way of recognizing the membership, how could the 1000 mean anything at all.

Also, bear in mind, the website will not need the approval from all members in order to put any articles on. Did all more than 1000 members look at the recent response and approve it?

Will what they posted is also一面之詞? If (I am saying if) the system of YD being presented by IEC and 525 meeting is true, the whole system is controlled by a small group of people and only they will get to the core of the faith system of YD.

在「證人」無法與國內耶青當面對質的情況下，單方面指控全體耶青，又把這些未經核實的內容當作是「已確認」的資料隨便發表公開；無論從教會界內或社會的法律觀點來看都是非常不公正、不公義、不合法的做法。調查團又表示為了「尊重證人意願」，不能公開其身份而導致未能確認「證人」身份，這無疑是放棄了保護有可能已遭受誣害的現有耶青會員．

If YD is so transparent and request the transparency of the witnesses, I think they should first expose who are the missionaries who started the YD in 1996. In the whole investigation, I think the most non-transparent part is the YD and their relationship with GH and David Jang.

三、本會已查明，有人曾到內地直接把耶穌青年會為統一教或類似統一教的理論，加以誘導當地的基督徒．某些證人已經親身作出見證，表示有人曾到國內直指耶穌青年會為統一教，是一個操控性教派，試圖誘其出面指證耶穌青年會事件不果。該等證人在擔憂之下與本會聯絡，並指出該人向其「洗腦」的行為。據悉，該等人更繼續以電郵聯繫各地的信徒，不斷向他們提供資料，建立了一個人事網絡。因此，本會不排除所謂的20多位「證人」當中有曾被「洗腦」的無知信徒。

I didn't cut any part of the above point because I want all readers to see as they condemned the IEC making statement without verification, what about themselves, did they verify what they said in the above statement? In the past experience, we already saw how they used wordings to twist meaning and mislead the reader.

If their "witnesses" testify that someone went in and brainwash them, shouldn't they also ask the "brainwash" people to verify that they actually did that first, shouldn't they also ask the witnesses how long they have been brainwash, how and in what way?

I still doubt very much that they understand the meaning of brainwash. If I send 10 e-mails to a person stating one thing, is that brainwashing? I think they should read their own statement about the IEC to themselves:

把這些未經核實的內容當作是「已確認」的資料隨便發表公開；無論從教會界內或社會的法律觀點來看都是非常不公正、不公義、不合法的做法

總結及建議：
至今，調查團報告無疑是僅僅指向中國內地耶穌青年會內有可能存在的教義問題，並且表示高度關注和擔憂；本會深深了解並接納牧者們的關愛。

I think the concern is not just the YD in China since YD International is formed in China and it is an international organization. The reason the focus is upon YD China is because that is the origin of YD. It doesn't mean that other YD has a different system or different doctrines. I don't think any internaitonal organization will accept regional organization to deviate from the main body in anyway.

鑒於調查團所針對的範圍已經濃縮和收窄至中國國內的耶青，之前由柯廣輝律師召集的「調查團」的設計已經不再適合，本會在此敦促解散。

Don't forget the mandate of the IEC, they are doing what they suppose to do. Please take a look again:

http://www.enquirycommittee-ghi.org/tc/scope.htm

而香港耶青真誠表達願意與「調查團」及其他關注此事的牧者合作，成為與中國內地信徒溝通的橋樑，以公平、公正、公開的調查手法來驗證真相，然後一起發表真正對華人基督教有益處的報告。

I am sure and hope that this will happen as we can see in IEC's report that they also have a concern for the YD members. The question is are they ready?

佚名Anonymous / 2008-06-24 20:54:44

耶穌青年會(香港)網站登出的回應

在耶穌青年會(香港)網站登出的回應 :
(http://www.ydhk.org/ydpulse/articles.php?code=6&id=475)

本會回應「調查團」 6月23日匯報

針對「調查團」於6月23日發表之最新匯報連同所謂的內地各地區證人一覽表，經過與內地代表同工的溝通之後，本會採取極度保留的態度。疑點詳列如下：

一、調查團表示曾與超過20名散佈在華南、華東、華中、華北各地的前耶穌青年會成員及知情者接觸，並聲稱已證實了所謂的證人(下稱「證人」)的身份。然而調查團查實從未親自接觸本會在中國的在任負責人，核實這些「證人」是否曾為耶青成員。即使這些「證人」確為耶青前成員，「證人」在耶青期間的信仰狀況、帶領「證人」的牧者是誰、在耶青曾經學習的內容、參與年資、離開耶青日期等詳細背景資料也未曾經中國的負責人核實。本會認為這是調查過程中一個根本性的錯誤和漏洞。

二、調查團以尊重證人意願為由將20位「證人」的身份保密，然而本會呼籲調查團更應尊重現有的1,000多位來自中國、香港和海外耶青成員的信仰立場。本會已多次公開重申我們相信主耶穌基督的十字架是完全的得勝，也從來沒有相信或宣傳某人是再來的基督。而這少部分「證人」所講的每一項卻與全體耶青信仰立場完全違背。本會無從理解調查團何以以偏概全，用以一面之詞來指本會信仰有偏差。

在「證人」無法與國內耶青當面對質的情況下，單方面指控全體耶青，又把這些未經核實的內容當作是「已確認」的資料隨便發表公開；無論從教會界內或社會的法律觀點來看都是非常不公正、不公義、不合法的做法。調查團又表示為了「尊重證人意願」，不能公開其身份而導致未能確認「證人」身份，這無疑是放棄了保護有可能已遭受誣害的現有耶青會員．

三、本會已查明，有人曾到內地直接把耶穌青年會為統一教或類似統一教的理論，加以誘導當地的基督徒．某些證人已經親身作出見證，表示有人曾到國內直指耶穌青年會為統一教，是一個操控性教派，試圖誘其出面指證耶穌青年會事件不果。該等證人在擔憂之下與本會聯絡，並指出該人向其「洗腦」的行為。據悉，該等人更繼續以電郵聯繫各地的信徒，不斷向他們提供資料，建立了一個人事網絡。因此，本會不排除所謂的20多位「證人」當中有曾被「洗腦」的無知信徒。

四、本會認識對耶青確實存在深刻誤解的同道，本會亦曾積極與他們對話溝通，解開誤解。就以合肥的H弟兄為例，他曾於2007年暑假訪問香港，在耶青的顧問牧師見證下，香港本地同工已經向他明確闡述本會的信仰，表明本會相信十字架是完全的得勝；然而他之後又到處散播虛假的見證。至今本會也無從得知他是否所謂的「證人」之一，如果答案是肯定，本會促請調查團再三考慮證人證供的可信度。

五、本會重申我們的信仰告白是出於良心的、向著上帝的真誠的告白。我們的信仰並不可能從其他人的口而出，天下間沒有人能夠代替我們告白自己的信仰。使徒保羅說：「你若口裡認耶穌為主，心裡信　神叫他從死裡復活，就必得救。」（羅10:9）對於有人指高層耶青成員在眾華人教會面前隱瞞「認為十字架是失敗」的信仰，這純粹是個人的猜測。

總結及建議：
至今，調查團報告無疑是僅僅指向中國內地耶穌青年會內有可能存在的教義問題，並且表示高度關注和擔憂；本會深深了解並接納牧者們的關愛。爲了耶穌青年會日後能夠在中國、香港以致海外更加健康地成長，本會也本著追求真理的精神來深入探討此事。本會不接受統一教或類似統一教的教導，亦必會正視團體內有可能存在信仰有偏差的分子甚至是與統一教有關的人，如有發現，必定與他們劃清界線。

鑒於調查團所針對的範圍已經濃縮和收窄至中國國內的耶青，之前由柯廣輝律師召集的「調查團」的設計已經不再適合，本會在此敦促解散。而香港耶青真誠表達願意與「調查團」及其他關注此事的牧者合作，成為與中國內地信徒溝通的橋樑，以公平、公正、公開的調查手法來驗證真相，然後一起發表真正對華人基督教有益處的報告。

耶穌青年會（香港）

Hin / 2008-06-24 17:06:23

To Cham and Kit: similar questions

First of all, even though Cham and Kit raised similar questions in their postings but Cham's approach and attitude are very different from Kit's. Therefore, whatever I said in the following might answer Kit but is not directed toward Kit but rather focusing at Cham.

Cham has made a lot of assumptions, as Cham condemned the IEC, Cham is doing exactly the same as what Cham is condemning. Cham challenged the IEC's findings without any objective evidence and proof but at the same time, Cham drew conclusions about the IEC without any objective evidence and proof as well.

柯廣輝律師所召集的調查團本次的最新匯報卻曝露出自身的更多矛盾。其為求目的孤注一擲已經是再明顯不過的了。

I don't think this is the best and the last that the IEC can give or do, they are rather proceeding one step at a time. How can this be再明顯不過, absolutely not. I think Cham is jumping a lot of steps ahead. In the newest posting of IEC, they said 調查團將把所得結果於網站www.enquirycommittee-ghi.org公佈，並繼續通過《時代論壇》向公眾報導。They just started something new, this is definitely not their last and best that they can do. They are not so desperate but rather based on what Cham wrote, I think the YD and GH is more desperate than ever.

Cham has drew 3 separate conclusions:

1. IEC 依仗個人名望與地位再次誘導眾人來接受調查團發表之言論.

2. 利用了調查團的全體名義而作出的惡性報導。這樣做的行為本身是邪惡的，是利用了調查團中牧者們的卑鄙行徑.

3. 他們繼續改組，目的就是爲了刪除公正的力量.

All the above are ungrounded at all, there is no proof nor evidence to back up the above conclusions.

If we invite a qualified person to inspect a project, can we conclude 依仗個人名望與地位誘導眾人 or should we invite those non-qualified person to join in order to avoid such accusation? When the Yeungs didn't have theological trainings, others challenged them as not qualified to do any investigation. When the IEC added "qualified" member to the team, Cham accused them of using personal fame and position to mislead others. For people like Cham, no matter which way you turn, you will hit a wall!

IEC has stated that the witnesses are independent and have confirmed their identity but Cham stated 實質就是根本未曾確認，也無法確認。一旦確認，洗腦、假證事件就會曝露無疑。How could Cham said that? How did Cham know that the IEC never confirmed and there is no way to confirm and if the identities of these witnesses are being confirmed, then they will show that there are brain washing and false witnesses?

I really hope that Cham can first "confirm" what he/she said? What Cham is saying is that the IEC is deliberately fabricating a group of false witnesses and their testimonies. I think Cham should be glad that his/her identity can't be confirmed and IEC is not like GH, if not he/she will for sure receive a few legal letters from the IEC (remember my "if" in the above statement).

在調查團中存在對超過20名內地青年的洗腦行為。若不是的話，那么必定有人在背後操縱著這個“證人”網絡，所以才能夠在同一時間裡面集中的出現雷同的假見證。Again, what a conclusion, Cham said that 所謂證人作出的證據都是按照了調查團的邏輯進行的. I think what Cham wrote is according to his/her logic which is first of all, all the reports from IEC are false, therefore they must have brainwash the witnesses or manipulating the witnesses in order to have the findings. Secondly, the logic of IEC is not what Cham assumed or presented or at least can't be proven to be what Cham has presented. Thirdly, it is hard for many to believe that these IEC members were so determined to make up false conclusions that they are willing to go to China and come up with 20 targeted witnesses and then brainwashed them.

怎么可能這些證人沉默多年後，於今時今日方才“覺悟”？這背後的策動力豈可小看？These witnesses have left YD already. They didn't realized what is wrong with YD now. Why would't the witnesses come out earlier? Why would they? If you asked most of the former cult members from different cults, then you won't see too many who are or able to come out and testify against the cult. As there are many former gang members, did everyone of them come out and testify against the gang that they were in ? Will all these former gang members become police officers and try to arrest the gang members or dissolve the gang?

簡單地講，這份所謂調查團的最新匯報所曝露的不是耶穌青年會存在問題，而是成為了反證調查團中的惡性勢力與行為。看來很快真相就要大白天下。

Indeed, the truth will be revealed soon and has been revealed gradually and step by step.

To Kit: bear in mind that YD and GH are sharing the same platform and they are closely related. If there is a problem with YD, that will be a problem for GH too.

佚名Anonymous / 2008-06-24 16:45:03

to cham

我勸你唔好講埋d咁既野啦! 你愈係講埋呢d口號式辯證, 便愈令大家睇你地唔起!!!! 且更證明你們「屬靈和社會閱歷」上的不成熟。

唉....

Kit / 2008-06-24 14:58:40

IC back to focus

Dear all,

It is very encouraging to see the latest update from the investigation committee. I think the whole picture is now being revealed more clearly. What the investigation committee truly worried about was the teaching of YD in Mainland China. This problem is not able to be solved by GH and YD in Hong Kong. I guess the Investigation Committee should further move their steps and concentrate their study on YD Mainland China. What is the point of using the name “Gospel Herald Investigation Committee”? Coming to this point, it doesn’t make sense anymore.

Can they find out more problems of GH? All the existing operational problems in GH do not mean anything in terms of pointing this group to heresy. We should all focus on dealing with the so-called “witness” from Mainland China and the alleged “false teachings” in YD. This time, the Investigation Committee shows their initiative to help ex-YD members start a healthy Christian faith, that’s a very proper attitude. Being pastors, they should always focus on education and counseling. Why did they only point fingers at YD members at first?

Reading at the table provided by the Investigation Committee, I would say, again, it lacks objectivity. Who are these 20 “witnesses”? Just as we cannot trust what YD/GH said recklessly, we should not trust these “testimonies” without knowing the witnesses. Why should we believe in anonymous that are not able to tell us who they are?

Also clearly, this table tells us a clue- these witnesses are possibly connected with each other in an unknown network. Why would they speak almost the same thing, but their faith contradict completely with YD HK’s confession of faith? Why do they suddenly come out all at once after leaving YD for so many years? If they are truly members of YD, and they believe YD is a cult, they should come out in public to testify bravely for the sake of the truth. Why are they retreated? Is there any force that urged them to say such thing so they feel shameful to meet YD with face to face?

Christianity in Mainland China is very complicated due to the lack of theological education, pastoral leadership and discipleship training. Therefore, I think Investigation Committee’s pastors should deal with that alleged problem in YD China by offering support with a heart of love.

cham / 2008-06-24 12:58:59

最新匯報曝露調查團中的惡性勢力與行為

調查團成員一再改組，力求依仗個人名望與地位再次誘導眾人來接受調查團發表之言論。而且所發出之匯報分明不是調查團全體成員的共識，而僅僅是作為召集人或者個別人員利用了調查團的全體名義而作出的惡性報導。這樣做的行為本身是邪惡的，是利用了調查團中牧者們的卑鄙行徑。因此他們繼續改組，目的就是爲了刪除公正的力量；取而代之的是組成牢靠的單方勢力，繼續假扮宗教警察，迫害耶穌青年會。

調查團曾與超過20名內地人員接觸，但卻1名都未能公開證實其人身份，於耶穌青年會的關係。卻在言語上大肆渲染身份都已獲得證實。以“證人要求保密身份”為由，躲避身份確認，這是強詞奪理。實質就是根本未曾確認，也無法確認。一旦確認，洗腦、假證事件就會曝露無疑。耶穌青年會一再要求於所謂證人的對證，始終未果的理由相信也就在於此。

同時在一覽表中所觀察到的是證據亦自相矛盾。而且那些所謂證人作出的證據都是按照了調查團的邏輯進行的，激進地講的話，可以說在調查團中存在對超過20名內地青年的洗腦行為。若不是的話，那么必定有人在背後操縱著這個“證人”網絡，所以才能夠在同一時間裡面集中的出現雷同的假見證。試問若耶穌青年會果真存在如此重大之問題，怎么可能這些證人沉默多年後，於今時今日方才“覺悟”？這背後的策動力豈可小看？調查團在匯報中宣稱這些是獨立證人，這是謊言。

Hin / 2008-06-23 19:57:59

Thank You Investigation Committee

I greatly appreciate what the Investigation Committee have done since March. They are both very careful and professional.

GH is still trying very hard to convince others that they are OK, trying very hard to hide their relationship with David Jang. As time goes by, more and more questions, more and more evidences are being exposed about YD and GH.

OMF is a respectable organization, they also have many connection and a strong network in China, if they are willing to allow their full-time staff to join in the investigation, it is again another sign about the problems with GH and YD.

I am not encouraging blind faith to follow "big" pastors and "big" organizations but I am sure these pastors and organizations are not jumping into this with blind faith but rather after detail and careful consideration.

As many criticize the Yeungs as not having solid theological background themselves, I think the investigation committee can provide a very diverse and solid theological background and credential. What then will the opponents say?

Once again, it is really interesting to see David Jang hiding behind all these. In the website of YD, they only mention about Presbyterian missionaries who started the YD but didn't specify whether they are from Korea or not but from Mrs. Teng's presentation, we knew that they are from Korea and David Jang is definitely involved in it. Why so much hiding?

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